Thanks for joining us yesterday in #nerdland, folks. Today, as you heard during the show, will be quite a bit different than our regular "MHP" -- Melissa will be hosting and moderating the Education Nation Student Town Hall, live at the same time we're always on: 10:00am ET on msnbc!
We'll be posting questions on our Facebook page thread and on Twitter, where you can respond to @MHPshow. You can be a part of the show by tweeting with the hashtag #EdNatSTH today, and during the broadcast!
We hope you and the students in your life join us online and on msnbc today at 10:00am ET for a two-hour discussion we hope you find enlightening. See you then!
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The Student Town Hall is good but it should not be focused around student loans it should be Why Colleges charge 5-10 time more than they did 20 years ago. That is the issue. Once Colleges knew that the Government was loaning out all this money they raised their tuition since it was free money to them. That is BS. It is sad that Colleges have taken advantage of the need for higher education. You would think that most colleges are liberal that they would not gouge the kids that they try so hard to protect.
If you lower all the handouts, the colleges would have to lower tuition to attract students. Liberal Greed at its best in our Colleges....pretty sick
The many students on your show who equated students with customers instead of citizens should give you a little hint that your audience and students were preselected to represent the Obama/Duncan/Emmanuel corporate model of education. Hopefully, this will give you (a presumed liberal) a moment's pause. While there was plenty of attentio n to the possibility of the corporate charter school model working in some cases (for very few kids at the expense of the general student population)in raising scores of racial minorities, there was no mention of the fact that the gap between white and minority kids was closing in the 1970s in the general student population after Johnson had introduced the poverty programs.
The individual upwardly mobile "race to the top" model is clearly a program geared toward the individual upwardly mobile students and not to our whole population. Students have been indoctrinated in this philosophy since Reagan got office in 1980. Clinton and Obama have also continued in this class blind model.
Providing education for all in the same neighborhood school building does not mean that it has to be dumbed down. there can be different levels of academic classes, along with integrated (academically/not racially)general courses in citizenship, sports, arts, music, computer driven, etc. Projects help - i.e. robotics competitions in which students interested in both automechanics and engineering will compete (and there is no sure given who will win), building your dream house involves, artist types, architecture types, carpenter types. Taking students to real politic events and encouragin their participation (depending on the issue, there will be more motivated children of color). But in order to have such a school requires a basic respect for all of our population and their contributions to society --a perspective which is no longer heard as us "nerds" have finally found our place (since we often weren't cheerleaders) in our race to the top.
Some years ago, my daughter started referring to herself as a "customer" as well as a student. In her case, she had already spent years working in the retail industry, and that was her frame of reference. She was going hungry in order to pay for school, juggling child care- her schedule- and the kids' needs, and her expectations of value for her hard-earned dollars were not being met.
The lack of "customer service" skill by one instructor especially annoyed her resulting in an Academician Meet Customer Service Rep moment of Truth. The "privilege" of faculty is being challenged by the quality of the classroom and materials as experienced by returning and older students. It'll be messy but valuable in the long run.
In our rank commercial culture, what would we expect? We have a couple of generations at least who are business-oriented survivors of the "corporate" mentality in the workplace. Many detest the "corporatization" of culture and they fully comprehend its impacts on our society.
Our country has forgotten (and has been propagandized against) the dignity of public service and the roles of citizen participation in the greater scheme. I think we're rediscovering and defining it anew. The corporate model is not suitable for gov't, non-profit, and public services. People will use what works and discard the rest, but it will take time. The Chicago teachers' strike was just one clarifying step towards progress in the national project.
Thank you, Melissa, for interrogating the use of "customer" to refer to students. The language of "customer" does capture the responsibility and accountability of schools to offer something that pleases, satisfies, meets the needs of students. However, the term "customer" also carries with it ideas of commerce and exchange which may be used to affirm the economic profit motive in determining education policy. I consider education (especially primary and secondary education) an important element of developing good citizens. Forming citizens is important to the common good. Market assessments do not always care about or contribute to the "common" good.
I am in Little Rock, AR and very proud and appreciative of the Little Rock 9. I am one of another kind of Little Rock 9, my eight siblings and I shared experiences ranging from the closing of schools in '57, integration, and on to today with children and grandchildren in what is to me a re-segregation of this city. The schools being part of the city reflect the extremes of the separation. I hold teachers and educators in general and we should support them and allow them more say in what goes on in the classroom and thereby the city will learn with ever semester. Forced integration in Little Rock has percipitated the over-ground railroad out of this integrated inner city. It you visit Little Rock today you will see the dividing line of I-630 in Little Rock running from East to West that in its design destroyed what was the African American business district. Development and innovation occurs on their side of this new make-some get-some line. Except for the Clinton Presidential Library there is not much for children and family's. I often want to scream at the obvious segregated, money motivated, double-standard in our governments, (city, state, and national) and the education systems attached to them. Racism and class-ism is popular and unaddressed in education of students and citizens in general. I am no scholar but forced integration of the Little Rock School District did not solve anything for a race of people thought to be less than human any more than emancipation taught the superior race to find love in their hearts for their fellow man. The example of the students I see today are great role models for their parents and elders as they have been exposed to each other under less hostile environments but do not ignore the fact that power is money and money making requires haves and wants. Poverty is the extreme that damages the potential of tomorrows citizens and hopeful taxpayers and not victims. During slavery everybody knew their place, since emancipation they do not. Thank you MHP, MSNBC, and people who care of all races and from all places, keep hope alive and continue to move Forward!
I found it disheartening that a forum on education did not include teachers. As a teacher I am sick and tired of the disrespect we get as a profession. For example, In New Mexico there is an amendment to the state constitution that creates the postition of Secretary of Education that clearly states the holder of that office must have years of experience in the classroom and in education in general. the current Governor, GOP rising star Suzanna Martinez, ignored those requirements and appointed a policy maker with absiolutley no experience in education as secrtery. The legislature did not approve, yet she is still in the position as "secrteary designee" making decisions and setting policy. I ask you, what other profession would be asked to accept a non expert as their boss? woud you force lawyers to accept a garbage man as the head of the bar association? The designee's only qualifications are that she worked in both administrations on Florida and Texas, helping with the educational "miracles" there. Miracle which are being shown to be giant frauds in both states.
The fallacy of school choice is dangerous too. Parents will make choices based on things like does a school require uniforms? instead of substantive things that make a school great.
My question is, where is the accountability for parents? where are the evaluations for parents? when do we hold them accountable? why is it that a kid can miss 200 days of school (out of 370) in two years, yet when he scores low on standardized tests its our fault? In New Mexico parents can choose not to have their children held back a year. How do we blame teachers when a student is recommended to repeat a grade EVERY YEAR THEY ARE IN SCHOOL and parents say no? How can you blame teachers who diligently assess a student and feel there is a need for evaluation for special education, tel the parents and the parents move the student to another school rather than get the help the student needs? How is it our fault when a student goes to 6 schools in six years? when discipline cases arrive with two weeks left in the school year? when parents don'rt return phone calls, don'rt have working phone numbers, refuse counseling for troubled students so they don't get caught as abusers, homeless families, hungry families, families who view us as the enemy? How dare you blame me for the failings of parents. Go into schools and find out whats really happening.
Come and see how many of us are lousy teachers protected by the union.
The chicago teachers were striking because they had 41 students in an un-air conditioned room with no textbooks. Why don't you report on that?
Melissa and the show are strong advocates for teachers, students, education, and reforms. They do talk about the same issues the Chicago teachers and the unions are addressing.
There was an Education Nation show on last year with Brian Williams (and I think I saw an ad for an upcoming event recently) which was a national discussion with teachers. I have to say I am impressed with the progress made in one short year. The teachers were shy as a whole, and disorganized.
Excellent program! Thank you so much for doing this and please keep up the great work!
The graphic you had up was a little off (75, 15 and 11 would be 101% percent). While I can see how odd decimals might be the source of that error, it be better to pay more attention to these things...especially around a topic such as this.
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The problem is not that public schools are failing, it is that they are wildly succeeding. The public school system was designed by a man named "Horice Mann". They where build as a social engineering project, to produce large numbers of factory workers who sat quietly, followed directions, repeated monotonous tasks, and did not ask to many questions.
If you do not want to believe that this is true, ask yourself, why are classrooms structured the way they are, this the desks in rows? If the point was to encourage students to think, then you would want them able to discuss and look at multiple points of view. This would require them to be able to see each-other easily, IE sit in a circle or half circle. The thing that is accomplished by them sitting in rows is to stifle discussion among the students and encourage questions to be directed at the teacher.
The school reform movement itself is a joke. First, no one is proposing offering market competitive wages to teachers, so the idea of "Merit based pay" is baseless and without merit. Teaching requires two masters degrees in most states, on par with a sys admin or Financial annalist. Starting salary for teachers is in the 30-40 k range, however other masters majors generally make in the 80k+ range. Teachers average pay generally resembles that of high school dropouts, at least according to the data i am seeing. In this framework, the idea that they are going to begin paying based on "Merit" is ludicrous. If these idiots actually were worried about the availability of competent teachers, they would be proposing salaries starting at low 6 figures. They are not, so their not.
What merit based pay is is a cheap excuse to guarantee that the very best teacher a school district has are the very first people fired the instant there is a budget crunch, because obviously they are "Over-payed". This entire "school reform" movement is some cockamamie scheme by think-tanks and lobbyists to privatize public education. Cause as we all know, private for profit collages have been such a success.
What would real education reform look like? Step 1) roundtable format in all classrooms; critical thinking is key in the 21st century, either schools are teaching it or their not. Step 2) Pass of Fail grading; just like in real life, you either did the job or you did not. Step 3) market competitive wages for all teachers; If you want top talent, pay top wages. If you pay bargain basement wages, you get bargain basement talent.
I will believe the "school reformers" are serious when they propose getting into a bidding war with wall street over Harvard graduates, until then, this is either a joke or a scam.
I disagree that this process is a joke or a scam. Reforming institutions with intent is an enormous project. It requires clear goals and willing participants. We're just now clarifying and reaching consensus on the needed changes. Your ideas are included in some of the subjects of discussion in reform materials I've read.
I think the difference becomes clear in your suggestions #2 and #3. Public education's mission does not "toss" people, if possible. Rejection is counter-productive to the goals of enabling, enhancing, and training a human being. Such goals require multiple strategies for success. The lack of well-funded alternatives for the disabled or challenged students which are being highlighted currently are not any different in effect from outright refusing to fund basic education for entire communities. That's why we're seeing the demands for stable basic funding along with alternative schools within the public system, and people demanding more constructive and easily available support services. People WANT to learn.
As the adults learn more about "learning", it is clear that the old hierarchical system of instruction is only one style of instruction which is useful. Interestingly, that approach is one most easily replaced by computerization for many students. Expansion into varied forms of instruction and experiential learning and mentoring are now required and demanded. I think it's an exciting time for everyone involved in education. It will be messy, but it's important.
Young children from varied levels of education/skills exposure perform differently. The goal is to teach all to understand what going to school means and how to comply. The larger goal is to train them to be cooperative and productive citizens in varied ways. The Industrial Age approach has outlived its usefulness, but that doesn't mean we throw out public education.
Teaching is very different from business management. The end result, the experiences surrounding the result, and the institutional/public support for the process requires full funding, constant evaluation, and ongoing review and adjustment. We have consistently decreased funding for appropriate public education as the revenues have decreased and the population has advanced and grown. Streamlining for efficiency and effectiveness varies depending on the individual setting and available funding. A strong national program of fully funded public schools, conveniently located in all cities and towns has great potential- as always. Jobs, jobs, jobs! The system needs thorough modernization and flexibility. That has not been the agreed upon focus until recently, and it has enormous and interesting challenges ahead.
Education for all is a noble and worthy goal. It remains an American ideal, in my opinion. Figuring out how to do it on an ongoing basis, and do it well, is just one verse of our fundamental national song.
"The goal is to teach all to understand what going to school means and how to comply. The larger goal is to train them to be cooperative and productive citizens in varied ways. The Industrial Age approach has outlived its usefulness, but that doesn't mean we throw out public education."
First, my intention here is not to start a flame war, but your argument is internally inconsistent. Please read the writings of Horice Mann. The purpose of the industrial school system was to "train them to be cooperative" and "understand how to comply". That is precisely the problem with the industrial school system, to much focus on sitting quietly and listening to instructions, to little focus on asking questions and challenging assumptions. Our nation is starved for critical thinking because our schools are teaching our children to comply, not to challenge. That is what must be changed before all other things. We must create and education system that teaches people to work together to build new ideas, rather then teaching them to quietly accept the old ones.
We, as a nation, have come to rely on other to create ideas for us, and for this reason, those nations that are coming up with ideas are going to leapfrog ours. If you want our nation to be the very best, it must be the responsibility of each and every citizen to come up with ay new idea they can, and to do this each and every citizen must be trained from the earliest age to question all standing ideas in case they might be improved.
I found watching your program about Education Week interesting. It's great that you are a knowledging the students that you had on your show. Amazing what some of them are doing but my trouble with your show is that you are only having students who seem to be the top students that are the top of their class and they all seem to go to very good schools. I would whether see you come to my hometown of River Rouge, Michigan and explain to the parents here why the schools are in the shape they are in. According to the last state rankings our schools are rated in the lower 5% of the schools in the state. Now I know some of the teachers and they are good teachers but they seem to be getting the blame for the ranking. The thing about the Rouge schools is that most of the kids (white, black,hispanics) don't go to school here they go to any school they can in the downriver area. I heard rumor around 700 kids in town go to school elsewwhere. The students that are left are the ones that have parents that don't have a way of getting them out of here. Plus because we are on the southern border of Detroit we have alot of students coming in from Detroit but my worry is that we don't seem to be getting any of the good students and if we are why are the schools and mainly the High School rated so low. This is one of the public school systems you all talk about that need fixing but all anyone seems to talk about are all the great students from all the great schools you have on your shows. My oldest daughter when to Rouge High in the 9th grade and was a all A student but because the school was going downhill we had her transfer to Allen Park High and there she had problems her first year because of the different grading they did. She graduated after working hard with a 3.4 GPA. She now goes to the U of M- Dearborn and has been on the Dean's list a couple times. I do believe that if we had left her in Rouge High this she would not of gotten the skills she needed to accomplish the things she has. The few students that graduate from the high school with the top GPA's are far and few and I wonder how much trouble they have going on to whatever college they go to.
I am seventy years old and a student of the Chicago Public School System. My children are gradutes of the Chicago Public school system . They all attended college and had no problem with entrance scores. I know many families past and present who have children graduating from the Chicago Public School System and have test scores that are competative with anyone. There are many more students prepared for college in the public school system than any other and pulling out what is working in that that system and applying it to the entire system is the answer. Give the success stories in the public school system as much press and other systems and our education will recover to it's former greatness. It is the political promotional system in the public schools that prevented and prevents the correct people from being promoted in the public school system to provide education for our students.
I have been watching you since you were subbing for Rachel, 3 to 4 years ago. I faithfully watch MHP every Saturday and Sunday. The show this past Sunday, 23 Sep, was by far the best MHP show - so far.
I liked how you handled the little difference of opinion between Mr. Alter and Professor Heilig.
Mr. Goyal is a truly amazing young man. I would like to see what he is doing in twenty years.
I am a life-long learner, having received a bachelor’s degree at age 62, and am a voracious reader.
A public school system that teaches students "critical thinking skills" is high on my list of what needs to be done.
My son goes to Fort Dorchester Highschool, SC. I've been listening to your show 9-29-12 and I found myself fist pounding and yelling at the television. I have never had anyone agree with my beliefs except my aunt. FDHS has young teachers with nasty attitudes, speaking and dealing with the kids on a kids level. Calling themselves correcting bad behavior, but actual there justifying it. And the nastiness is contagious its spread onto all staff they are not there for all children but to defend themselves and assist the privileged (easy students). Its spread to the children and the parents because they know to get help to get an answer it will be a journey. I have avoided schools like this all my childrens life. People didnt believe me and critized me for going through so much trouble to create a way for my children to attend schools in good nieghborhoods. The Environment Is Different!!!! Everyone is on the same page encouraged inspired teachers principles cafeteria workers bus drivers...the children are being cheered on not belittled! I am very attentive to my kids dress. People give me a hard time, "there hairstyle shoes dress dont change who they are. Lie! If you go to a wedding woukd you wear your work uniform. If you want your child to respect themselves there attire should speak it to there souls! I encourage my children to get involved and many different things at school. Its a battle between me, my child, and the school staff telling them its not an option for them because im a low income single parent. Just last week after leaving a Graduation plan meeting at the school I ran out of those double doors crying and continued to cry for 2 hours yelling, "I'm tired of fighting". I'm fighting my child to have hope who is convinced by his peers, teachers, principles, counselors and staff at the school that hope is not for him. My oldest son committed suicide I lost to his atmosphere! The same day he committed suicide he was belittled by a teacher I knew was demeaning. I am fighting for my 2nd sons life LITERALLY! Against his environment. Its so hard! The school has gotten worse. Last year with a new principle it seemed like a positive energy had began rise above the negative. Theres a new principle this year and its all about discipline and restrictions. Not encouragement, opportunity, growth, or helping and informing all students.